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Thread: Why does Satan want to turn "gullible" people into "anti-vaxxers?"

  1. #181
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    Here again!

    Shalom Everyone, Eliyahu keeps asking, "When have or did you shed your own blood for your own sins APART from Messiah??" I never have said that I have shed my own blood...why would I need to do that? He keeps asking questions that shows HE thinks blood needs to be shed so that Elohim can forgive the wicked, and he is badly mistaken. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  2. #182
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    Boy what logic the religious have.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImAHebrew View Post
    Shalom Everyone, again and again Eliyahu shows us how little he understands. I do not believe in substitutes, I believe Yeshua died because of my sin, according to the Scriptures (not as my substitute), and here are a few of the Scriptures that Eliyahu will turn a blind eye too:

    Ex 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

    Num 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

    Deut 27:25 Cursed [be] he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

    Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to Yahweh.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    No where in the Scriptures does it state that Yeshua died as a "substitute," that is just all speculation in trying to explain or expound WHY Yeshua died FOR you. And when it comes to understanding Paul, Eliyahu is just like those who think Yeshua was made to become "sin" so that somehow, someway we were made to be Elohim's righteousness. How Eliyahu and traditional christianity thinks concerning 2 Cor 5:21, is not at all how The Apostle Paul was teaching. The simple explanation of what Paul was teaching is that Yeshua, BY us sinning, was made to be OUR sin offering, the One who KNEW no sin (Perfect & Innocent), so that we might FULFILL the Righteous requirement from the Law that was commanded by Yahweh Elohim. Yeshua became OUR sin offering in dying FOR us, and for those who accept Him as THEIR OWN offering/sacrifice, through Him, we fulfill righteousness (the doing of the Law, not by WORKS, but through faith that He is OUR sacrifice). Simple, once you "see" and "understand" what Paul was writing. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    So Ken,

    According to YOU, you murdered (with the help of sinful men) and sacrificed Yeshua as you say, and then in return for you doing this, then you are righteous in murdering an Innocent man.

    Boy what logic the religious have.
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  3. #183
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    This below is religious Ken's logic.

    According him, we must believe that we murdered Yeshua, breaking the spiritual commandment thou shalt do no murder, and then in return for breaking the law, then we are really fulfilling the law for righteousness.

    Yea right.
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  4. #184
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    Finally!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliyah View Post
    So Ken,

    According to YOU, you murdered (with the help of sinful men) and sacrificed Yeshua as you say, and then in return for you doing this, then you are righteous in murdering an Innocent man.

    Boy what logic the religious have.
    Shalom Everyone, FINALLY, Eliyahu understands. So now he can agree with the Apostle Paul where Paul says that OUR unrighteousness "commends" or "establishes" the Righteousness of Elohim that we are given as a free gift:

    Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of Elohim, what shall we say? [Is] Elohim unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

    This is just like where Paul states that anyone who desires or seeks this Righteousness FOUND in Messiah, that they HAD to be a sinner. So then someone like Eliyahu could say that the LOGIC is, Messiah Yeshua PROMOTES or is the MINISTER of sin:

    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified (made righteous) by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid.

    Yep, it's great that Eliyahu gets it. That Elohim's PLAN was to create mankind with the propensity to sin (Rom 8:7-8, 20-21, & Rom 11:32), and then use that sin to give us the Free Gift of Righteousness, so that ALL sinners who receive/accept this GRACE can be taught NOT to sin (Titus 2:11-15), so that their sin GOES into remission, no longer Sacrificing or placing Yeshua up upon the Cross where He doesn't belong. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  5. #185
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by ImAHebrew View Post
    Shalom Everyone, FINALLY, Eliyahu understands. So now he can agree with the Apostle Paul where Paul says that OUR unrighteousness "commends" or "establishes" the Righteousness of Elohim that we are given as a free gift:

    Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of Elohim, what shall we say? [Is] Elohim unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

    This is just like where Paul states that anyone who desires or seeks this Righteousness FOUND in Messiah, that they HAD to be a sinner. So then someone like Eliyahu could say that the LOGIC is, Messiah Yeshua PROMOTES or is the MINISTER of sin:

    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified (made righteous) by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid.

    Then why did you say this Ken:
    He detests the shedding of Innocent blood. It is an abomination to shed Innocent blood in the place or stead of the wicked.
    Then why was His Innocent blood shed for you-the wicked?

    Yep, it's great that Eliyahu gets it. That Elohim's PLAN was to create mankind with the propensity to sin (Rom 8:7-8, 20-21, & Rom 11:32), and then use that sin to give us the Free Gift of Righteousness, so that ALL sinners who receive/accept this GRACE can be taught NOT to sin (Titus 2:11-15), so that their sin GOES into remission, no longer Sacrificing or placing Yeshua up upon the Cross where He doesn't belong. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Then why did you say this Ken:
    He detests the shedding of Innocent blood. It is an abomination to shed Innocent blood in the place or stead of the wicked.
    Then why was His Innocent blood shed for you-the wicked?
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  6. #186
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    Mindset!

    Shalom Everyone, it is very difficult to change someone's mindset about their beliefs in how or why they think forgiveness is given to them. Most will be surprised when they find out that forgiveness is simple, all it takes is for a wicked person to change or turn FROM their sin, and it is forgiven them. It doesn't take shedding blood or killing, all it takes is a broken spirit and contrite heart. Now, to get to where sinner's spirits are broken, and their hearts are changed, it does take something very drastic...the shedding of innocent blood, and without shedding that innocent blood, there is no remission (a cessation FROM sin). Now, the shedding of an animals blood will not produce that remission, for who really cares or is troubled by killing an animal? But, the Shedding of Yeshua's Righteous and Innocent Blood, that is a different story. Once a sinner comes to the Knowledge of the Truth concerning how THEY did shed His blood, by sinning, then they REALIZE how abominable it was to participate in the shedding of His Blood, and they REPENT, FLEEING from their sin. Then, as a Free Gift, Righteousness is GIVEN because sinners can now believe and accept, by faith, that they did accomplish what the Law told them to do when they failed at keeping any of Elohim's commands. The Law requires that when sinners fail to keep the commands, they are to Sacrifice THEIR sin offering, and WHEN they do that, it is Righteousness for them (they are doing and not just hearing the Law - Rom 2:13).

    Now, the Jews back in Paul's day, when they heard Paul tell them that THEY had accomplished the Sacrifice required by the Law when THEY put Yeshua upon the Cross, they opposed this vehemently. They refused to accept Yeshua as THEIR sacrifice, and thought that Paul was crazy trying to tell them that a man was their offering. Paul would tell them that IF they desire to have the Righteousness found by faith in Yeshua, they had to be a sinner (it was by sinning that they sacrificed Him). For it is by and through the sin of all that Yeshua was placed upon the Cross, and this was an abomination, that a perfect, sinless, righteous, and innocent man was made to suffer so. Yeshua KNEW that He must go through this horrendous event for the sake of all sinners, to get them to TURN from their sin, as this was Elohim's PLAN at teaching us to be LIKE Him...hating evil and loving good. Once a sinner "sees" what THEIR sin did do, it compels them to stop sinning from the heart.

    When Paul would teach about this Righteousness that is given to those who have done evil (sinned), and explain how this doing of evil (sinning) results in good (righteousness), he would be SLANDERED and accused of teaching everyone that they should do evil, so that good may come (Rom 3:8). Paul did not tell anyone to continue in sin so that good may come, but he did tell them that all sinners, with the help of wicked men, did SLAY their offering, BY SINNING, and this evil is TURNED in a Spiritual DOING of the Law...Righteousness. Elohim is not concerned with getting blood for forgiveness, what He is concerned with is TURNING or TAKING AWAY sin FROM a sinner, and making them a Saint, and this is accomplished by the Shed Blood of Yeshua. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImAHebrew View Post
    Shalom Everyone, it is very difficult to change someone's mindset about their beliefs in how or why they think forgiveness is given to them. Most will be surprised when they find out that forgiveness is simple, all it takes is for a wicked person to change or turn FROM their sin, and it is forgiven them. It doesn't take shedding blood or killing, all it takes is a broken spirit and contrite heart. Now, to get to where sinner's spirits are broken, and their hearts are changed, it does take something very drastic...the shedding of innocent blood, and without shedding that innocent blood, there is no remission (a cessation FROM sin). Now, the shedding of an animals blood will not produce that remission, for who really cares or is troubled by killing an animal? But, the Shedding of Yeshua's Righteous and Innocent Blood, that is a different story. Once a sinner comes to the Knowledge of the Truth concerning how THEY did shed His blood, by sinning, then they REALIZE how abominable it was to participate in the shedding of His Blood, and they REPENT, FLEEING from their sin. Then, as a Free Gift, Righteousness is GIVEN because sinners can now believe and accept, by faith, that they did accomplish what the Law told them to do when they failed at keeping any of Elohim's commands. The Law requires that when sinners fail to keep the commands, they are to Sacrifice THEIR sin offering, and WHEN they do that, it is Righteousness for them (they are doing and not just hearing the Law - Rom 2:13).

    Now, the Jews back in Paul's day, when they heard Paul tell them that THEY had accomplished the Sacrifice required by the Law when THEY put Yeshua upon the Cross, they opposed this vehemently. They refused to accept Yeshua as THEIR sacrifice, and thought that Paul was crazy trying to tell them that a man was their offering. Paul would tell them that IF they desire to have the Righteousness found by faith in Yeshua, they had to be a sinner (it was by sinning that they sacrificed Him). For it is by and through the sin of all that Yeshua was placed upon the Cross, and this was an abomination, that a perfect, sinless, righteous, and innocent man was made to suffer so. Yeshua KNEW that He must go through this horrendous event for the sake of all sinners, to get them to TURN from their sin, as this was Elohim's PLAN at teaching us to be LIKE Him...hating evil and loving good. Once a sinner "sees" what THEIR sin did do, it compels them to stop sinning from the heart.

    When Paul would teach about this Righteousness that is given to those who have done evil (sinned), and explain how this doing of evil (sinning) results in good (righteousness), he would be SLANDERED and accused of teaching everyone that they should do evil, so that good may come (Rom 3:8). Paul did not tell anyone to continue in sin so that good may come, but he did tell them that all sinners, with the help of wicked men, did SLAY their offering, BY SINNING, and this evil is TURNED in a Spiritual DOING of the Law...Righteousness. Elohim is not concerned with getting blood for forgiveness, what He is concerned with is TURNING or TAKING AWAY sin FROM a sinner, and making them a Saint, and this is accomplished by the Shed Blood of Yeshua. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Ken said this above:
    Paul did not tell anyone to continue in sin so that good may come, but he/Paul did tell them that all sinners, with the help of wicked men, did SLAY their offering, BY SINNING, and this evil is TURNED in a Spiritual DOING of the Law...Righteousness.
    Really? Ken needs to show us the new testament text where the apostle Paul wrote and said this in his writings, instead of Ken attributing and putting his own words in Paul's mouth, because Paul NEVER wrote any such thing people.

    And regarding Messiah's blood as Paul wrote, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22.

    See these all of these texts below: http://www.blbclassic.org/search/tra...of+blood&t=KJV

    And here: http://www.blbclassic.org/search/tra...is+blood&t=KJV

    PS: Yahweh Himself said:The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the YAHWEH. Jeremiah 23:28.

    http://www.blbclassic.org/search/tra...=my+word&t=KJV

    And those that do not speak His words are not faithful.
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  8. #188
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    Well, it looks like we have a "precedent!"

    Shalom Everyone, well, it looks like we have a "precedent" set here! Before anyone can make a statement concerning THEIR beliefs and what THEY claim The Apostle Paul would have stated or told others, it requires a word for word New Testament VERSE stating THEIR particular belief. Take for instance the (false) BELIEF that The Apostle Paul would have KEPT and TAUGHT everyone that the Sabbath is NOT calculated by a "weekly" Sabbath, but rather by a "lunar" Sabbath. So NOW (based upon Eliyah's demand), we have a PRECEDENT set, that BEFORE anyone can claim TO KNOW what the Apostle Paul TAUGHT and KEPT concerning the Sabbath (or any other doctrine), that we would NEED a New Testament verse (by Paul) explicitly stating "word for word" that the Sabbath is to be calculated and kept according to the lunar calendar. Yes, no, maybe?

    So, WHERE did the Apostle Paul explicitly state that the Sabbath is to be kept according to the lunar calendar? If that New Testament Scripture is NOT forthcoming concerning what the Apostle Paul would have TAUGHT and KEPT, then we can ONLY assume that the Lunar Sabbath is a LIE (which I am certain it is, with or without the "precedent.") IF that standard or PRECEDENT is as some (Eliyahu) would suggest, I would also ask for the Scripture which states explicitly that Yeshua PIERCED and SLAYED Himself, instead of sinners slaying and piercing THEIR OWN sin offering (with the help of wicked men), by placing Yeshua upon the Cross, through and by their OWN sin. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

    P.S. Concerning the REMISSION of sin, and how the "blood" of animals would not produce the REMISSION of sin in a sinners life, BUT the shed blood of Yeshua DOES, this has been explained FULLY in prior posts, so don't let Eliyahu's false belief about REMISSION of sin, and his misunderstanding of the Apostle Paul's WORDS, influence you.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  9. #189
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    Ken's own precedent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImAHebrew View Post
    Shalom Everyone, well, it looks like we have a "precedent" set here! Before anyone can make a statement concerning THEIR beliefs and what THEY claim The Apostle Paul would have stated or told others, it requires a word for word New Testament VERSE stating THEIR particular belief. Take for instance the (false) BELIEF that The Apostle Paul would have KEPT and TAUGHT everyone that the Sabbath is NOT calculated by a "weekly" Sabbath, but rather by a "lunar" Sabbath. So NOW (based upon Eliyah's demand), we have a PRECEDENT set, that BEFORE anyone can claim TO KNOW what the Apostle Paul TAUGHT and KEPT concerning the Sabbath (or any other doctrine), that we would NEED a New Testament verse (by Paul) explicitly stating "word for word" that the Sabbath is to be calculated and kept according to the lunar calendar. Yes, no, maybe?

    So, WHERE did the Apostle Paul explicitly state that the Sabbath is to be kept according to the lunar calendar? If that New Testament Scripture is NOT forthcoming concerning what the Apostle Paul would have TAUGHT and KEPT, then we can ONLY assume that the Lunar Sabbath is a LIE (which I am certain it is, with or without the "precedent.") IF that standard or PRECEDENT is as some (Eliyahu) would suggest, I would also ask for the Scripture which states explicitly that Yeshua PIERCED and SLAYED Himself, instead of sinners slaying and piercing THEIR OWN sin offering (with the help of wicked men), by placing Yeshua upon the Cross, through and by their OWN sin. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

    P.S. Concerning the REMISSION of sin, and how the "blood" of animals would not produce the REMISSION of sin in a sinners life, BUT the shed blood of Yeshua DOES, this has been explained FULLY in prior posts, so don't let Eliyahu's false belief about REMISSION of sin, and his misunderstanding of the Apostle Paul's WORDS, influence you.
    Ken wants his own precedent, while ignoring and disobeying Yah's own established precedents in the scriptures as He so commanded, and this now makes the SECOND time that Ken has used Spying's "precedent" excuse for disobedience to break scriptures.

    Shalom Everyone, well, it looks like we have a "precedent" set here!
    And exactly what is a "precedent"?

    1. an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.
    "there are substantial precedents for using interactive media in training"

    synonyms: model, exemplar, example, pattern, previous case, prior case, previous instance/example, prior instance/example; paradigm, criterion, yardstick, standard, lead, guide
    See here BELOW for verification:https://www.google.com/search?rls=co...30.VuxuRMhgkfw

    You see folks, the scriptures itself are the LEGAL "precedent" and what Ken did above by adding in or substituting his-Ken's own ideas and saying that Paul said them is forbidden by thee apostle Paul Himself in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 3:14, because others were evidently writing letters AS IF THEY WERE HIS and FROM HIM to the assemblies.

    It's strange, both Ken and Spying claim to not believe in substitutes as Guyguy pointed out in this thread, but they sure do love to substitute their own words and ideas IN PLACE OF and CONTRADICT(John called them anti-Christs) Yah Messiah and His Prophets and Apostles already written word.

    And I'm guessing this is WHY Spying wants to get rid of me, because there is no one else to correct them using Yah's own precedents/legal written examples the scriptures.
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  10. #190
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    Misunderstanding and not grasping!

    Shalom Everyone, the Apostle Peter told us that the Apostle Paul was difficult to understand, and that those who are "unlearned" and "unstable" would TWIST his words to mean something other than what Paul was teaching. A perfect example of it is where Paul was slandered with, "Let us do evil, that good may come." Why in all the world would someone accuse Paul of teaching that one should do evil so that good would result or come? Is it because Paul taught elsewhere that the Free Gift of Righteousness comes from MANY offences, "but the free gift is of many offences UNTO justification (righteousness)." So this Free Gift of Righteousness that Paul taught was "of many offences," sort of sounds like, "Let us do evil, that good may come," doesn't it?

    Now, those who are "unlearned" and "unstable" do TWIST Paul's very CLEAR words concerning how the FREE Gift is of MANY offences UNTO justification. They will deny Paul's reasoning of how ALL have sinned, and ALL are FREELY justified through the Grace (free gift) that comes of many offences. It is very clear once you become better learned and stable in GRASPING Paul, and how he taught about the Free Gift of Righteousness that is of MANY offences. This is why Paul also made it very clear that ANYONE who desired this Free Gift of Righteousness, that is of MANY offences, that they HAD to be a sinner:

    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified (made righteous) by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid.

    Do you see? This gets back to that "slander" about those saying Paul taught, "Let us do evil, that good may come," because Paul's teaching was that IF you desired or sought the Righteousness (the good) by Messiah, you had to be found a sinner (doing evil). This is how it worked. But don't try to think that Messiah PROMOTES or is a MINISTER of sin, because it is ONLY by letting sinners grasp what THEIR sin did (slayed/killed Yeshua), that they could be BLESSED to TURN away from ALL of their iniquities (Acts 3:26). All sinned (did evil), therefore, ALL, through their many offences, have this Free Gift of Righteousness. Paul is CLEARLY saying this, but those who are "unlearned" and "unstable" will twist Paul's words to mean something different. What a shame some are so hard headed and stubborn, misunderstanding and not grasping what Paul clearly said. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  11. #191
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    WHY The Law came in or was ADDED!

    Shabbat Shalom Everyone, it is very important to have a proper understanding of the Apostle Paul's teaching as to WHY the Law "came in" or was "ADDED." If anyone attempts to grasp or understand what he said or taught about Grace (the Free Gift of Righteousness), it is imperative that they FIRST grasp and understand WHY the Law "came in" or was "ADDED."

    In the previous post we see how The Apostle Paul taught that the Free Gift of Righteousness is of MANY offences. Paul also taught that when the offence is INCREASED, Grace is increased all the more. He was showing there was a DIRECT correlation BETWEEN Grace and transgressing the Law. Romans 5 is a chapter where Paul explains in great detail about these issues. He shows that what Adam gave to mankind (condemnation and death) was FROM or the result of just ONE offence/transgression. He also shows that what Yeshua gave to mankind (righteousness and life) was FROM or the result of MANY offences:

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one (offence/transgression) to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification (righteousness).

    Make no mistake, Paul is teaching that Adam gave death and condemnation THROUGH or BY just ONE transgression/offence, but the Free Gift of Righteousness is THROUGH or BY MANY offences/transgressions. Then Paul further explains WHY the Law ENTERED. He speaks very plainly in verse 20, that the Law ENTERED so that the OFFENCE might abound/increase:

    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    You see, BEFORE the entering in of the Law, sin was not IMPUTED, but when the Law entered, all could be like Adam, becoming TRANSGRESSORS. You see, Adam was given a Law/Command from Elohim, and when he broke that Law/Command, he became a transgressor. When the Law entered in, it did not change whether or not people were sinning, but what did change is that NOW sinners could become TRANSGRESSORS, just like Adam. So since Adam's offence has NOW been INCREASED (many now were made to be transgressors THROUGH or BY the entering in of the Law), Grace is increased all the more...the Free Gift of Righteousness that is OF MANY OFFENCES. Do you "see" that?

    Couple this with what Paul taught to the Galatians, and a very clear picture should emerge...The Law entered to INCREASE the offence of Adam, just like the Law was "ADDED" to Abraham's Covenant, to GIVE transgressions:

    Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of (kharin-G5484) transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Closely look at that Greek word G5484 "kharin" which is translated "because of." In looking at, also please consider the Greek word G5485 "kharis" for "Grace":

    G5484 ‫χάριν‬ (kharin) Definition: in favor of, for the pleasure of Transliteration: charin Word Origin: acc. of 5485, used as prep. NASB Translation: because(1), reason(5), sake(2). (NASEC) 'G5484'

    G5485 ‫χάρις‬ (kharis) Definition: grace, kindness Transliteration: charis Word Origin: a prim. word NASB Translation: blessing(1), concession(1), credit(3), favor(11), gift(1), grace(122), gracious(2), gracious work(3), gratitude(1), thank(3), thankfulness(2), thanks(6). (NASEC) 'G5485'

    You should notice that these two Greek words are very similar...kharin versus kharis, and BOTH of these Greek words speaks about something being GIVEN. It should be evident to you that Paul is stating that the Law was ADDED to Abraham's Covenant to GIVE transgressions. This goes hand in hand with what Paul taught in Romans 5:20, that the Law ENTERED in to INCREASE transgression. Elohim INCREASED or GAVE transgression THROUGH or BY the giving of the Law, but where TRANSGRESSION increased, Grace increased all the more. So how do you explain that? Why does INCREASING transgression, INCREASE the Free Give of Righteousness (Grace)? This can ONLY be explained by grasping or understanding that THROUGH or BY our sin (transgressing the Law) that WE ALL, with the help of wicked men, did Sacrifice or Slay our sin offering as COMMANDED in the Law to do.

    Paul taught that NOT the hearers of the Law are righteous, but the DOERS of the Law will be declared righteous (Rom 2:13), and the Law requires that ALL sinners (transgressors) are to KILL THEIR sin offering when they have failed to keep any of the commands from the Law (Lev 4:27-29). When the Israelites did this sacrifice, it was righteousness for them (but they had to keep doing it because they remained sinners), but those of us who acknowledge and believe that WE did SLAY our Sacrifice (Messiah Yeshua), BY SINNING, we are credited with the Righteousness that is BY Faith, which is through Grace, OF MANY OFFENCES so that we TURN from ALL of those iniquities (Acts 3:26). Really think about it. Can we REMAIN in sin, so that this Free Gift of Righteousness, that is OF many offences, ABOUND? By no means! We have to stop sinning from our hearts so that we do not continue in placing Yeshua upon the Cross where He does not belong.

    Hopefully this better explains some of the difficult teachings from the Apostle Paul. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  12. #192
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    Question

    So tell us all Ken, do you still believe that, sin is the origin of righteousness? A Yes or No will do.
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  13. #193
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    G1537 denotes ORIGIN!

    Shalom Everyone, just to clarify, YES, the Apostle Paul said that "many offences" was the ORIGIN of the Free Gift of Righteousness:

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of (G1537) many offences unto justification.

    Where the Apostle Paul says, "but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification," that Greek word (G1537) translated "of" denotes "origin" as explained here by Thayer's Greek Dictionary:

    G1537 ἐκ, ἐξ (ek, ex) 1.) out of, from, by, away from Etymology: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative Part of Speech: prep AV- of (366), from (181), out of (162), by (55), on (34), with (25), misc (98); (921) (Thayer) 'G1537'

    So, IF someone wants to believe the written WORDS of the Apostle Paul, they will acknowledge that "many offences" (sin) is the "source/origin" of the Free Gift of Justification (righteousness-G1345). This Free Gift of Righteousness, that Elohim GIVES to all sinners, "originates" or has it origin/source through many offences (sin), according to the WORDS of the Apostle Paul, and this is WHY he was slandered, being accused of saying, "Let us do evil, so that good may come." Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
    Abstain from meats offered to idols (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

  14. #194
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    Really Ken?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImAHebrew View Post
    Shalom Everyone, just to clarify, YES, the Apostle Paul said that "many offences" was the ORIGIN of the Free Gift of Righteousness:

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of (G1537) many offences unto justification.

    Where the Apostle Paul says, "but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification," that Greek word (G1537) translated "of" denotes "origin" as explained here by Thayer's Greek Dictionary:

    G1537 ἐκ, ἐξ (ek, ex) 1.) out of, from, by, away from Etymology: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative Part of Speech: prep AV- of (366), from (181), out of (162), by (55), on (34), with (25), misc (98); (921) (Thayer) 'G1537'

    So, IF someone wants to believe the written WORDS of the Apostle Paul, they will acknowledge that "many offences" (sin) is the "source/origin" of the Free Gift of Justification (righteousness-G1345). This Free Gift of Righteousness, that Elohim GIVES to all sinners, "originates" or has it origin/source through many offences (sin), according to the WORDS of the Apostle Paul, and this is WHY he was slandered, being accused of saying, =""[COLOR#008080"]Let us do evil, so that good may come[/COLOR]." Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
    Ken is taking a verse out of context and building a false premise on these verses.

    Ken quoted PART of this verse of Paul.
    =""[COLOR#008080"]Let us do evil, so that good may come[/COLOR]."
    Paul's exact words:
    And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
    Evidently Ken BELIEVES Paul's slanderers more than he believes Paul.

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of (G1537) many offences unto justification.
    Then why does Paul say and write this in the previous verse Romans 5:15?

    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the [free] gift by [the] grace [of God], which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    The free gift of the righteousness of Elohim is given by or through the One Man Yah'Shua Messiah.

    And even Romans 5:17 says the same in Paul's own context and words he used.

    For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the [free] gift of [the] righteousness [of God] shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of (G1537) many offences unto justification.
    Now let's correct this a bit to a more better way.

    Romans 5:16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is OUT AWAY FROM many offences UNTO justification.

    And G2532 was G2258 there G1563 until G2193 the death G5054 of Herod: G2264 that G2443 it might be fulfilled G4137 which G3588 was spoken G4483 of G5259 the Lord G2962 by G1223 the prophet, G4396 saying, G3004 Out of G1537 Egypt G125 have I called G2564 my G3450 son. G5207 Matthew 2:15.

    So I guess Ken will also have to believe that Yeshua Messiah ORIGINATED from Egypt, even though Matthew also wrote a few verses before Juda/Judah: G2448 for G1063 out of G1537 thee G4675 Matthew 2:6, and even though Yah Messiah Himself said that He was FROM Heaven John 3:13.

    Again, we must look at the other verses around a verse in the writers own context for their true meaning.
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

  15. #195
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    Also Ken,


    And G1161 killed G615 the Prince G747 of life, G2222 whom G3739 God G2316 hath raised G1453 from G1537 the dead; G3498 whereof G3739 we G2249 are G2070 witnesses. G3144 Acts 3:15; See also John 20:9.

    Does this mean that Yeshua Messiah originated from death too?
    A bit of revelation for ye.

    Messiah is the I AM He YAH of Scriptures, and He says so in John 8:58, and they would NOT believe Him either, will ye believe Him, and Messiah said to them- I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE/YAH, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24; See also Exodus 3:13-15.

    Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19.

    By His name YAH Psalms 68:4 N.K.J.V

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